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	<title>Comments on: outgrowing paganism, 2</title>
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	<link>http://eatsbugs.wordpress.com/2009/01/08/outgrowing-paganism-2/</link>
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		<title>By: firewings</title>
		<link>http://eatsbugs.wordpress.com/2009/01/08/outgrowing-paganism-2/#comment-2162</link>
		<dc:creator>firewings</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Jan 2009 15:02:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://eatsbugs.wordpress.com/?p=647#comment-2162</guid>
		<description>*shakes head as she wanders by* Have you noticed how I keep my distance during these conversations?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>*shakes head as she wanders by* Have you noticed how I keep my distance during these conversations?</p>
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		<title>By: picking on Lonnie &#171; &#8230;eats bugs.</title>
		<link>http://eatsbugs.wordpress.com/2009/01/08/outgrowing-paganism-2/#comment-2140</link>
		<dc:creator>picking on Lonnie &#171; &#8230;eats bugs.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Jan 2009 05:10:51 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] bugs.     &#171; outgrowing paganism,&#160;2    picking on&#160;Lonnie January 10, 2009   On a previous post, commenter Lonnie detailed some [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] bugs.     &laquo; outgrowing paganism,&nbsp;2    picking on&nbsp;Lonnie January 10, 2009   On a previous post, commenter Lonnie detailed some [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Lilly &#124; Druid Journal</title>
		<link>http://eatsbugs.wordpress.com/2009/01/08/outgrowing-paganism-2/#comment-2138</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Lilly &#124; Druid Journal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 22:58:53 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Hi Derek!  Thanks for your thoughtful reply to my post.  I&#039;ve replied in kind.  I am not posting my full reply here, in the interest of saving space on your blog; this is the link:  http://druidjournal.net/2009/01/08/irrational-paganism/#comment-131375.  But I&#039;m not sure what the best blogging etiquette is here -- I&#039;m happy to post the full text here, also; let me know.  Thanks again!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Derek!  Thanks for your thoughtful reply to my post.  I&#8217;ve replied in kind.  I am not posting my full reply here, in the interest of saving space on your blog; this is the link:  <a href="http://druidjournal.net/2009/01/08/irrational-paganism/#comment-131375" rel="nofollow">http://druidjournal.net/2009/01/08/irrational-paganism/#comment-131375</a>.  But I&#8217;m not sure what the best blogging etiquette is here &#8212; I&#8217;m happy to post the full text here, also; let me know.  Thanks again!</p>
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		<title>By: Lonnie</title>
		<link>http://eatsbugs.wordpress.com/2009/01/08/outgrowing-paganism-2/#comment-2137</link>
		<dc:creator>Lonnie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 16:04:06 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>As a pagan Naturalist, I can sense your frustration at the supernaturalist bent that Paganism has taken.  I too am not so crazy about the crystals, and unbelievable claims of many of the adherents of Paganism.   I blame alot of that on the fusion of new age mysticism with Neopaganism which happened in the 60&#039;s and 70&#039;s.

Nonetheless, I think that if we allow others to define our words for us, then we give them some degree of power over us.  There is strong evidence that magic was not seen as particularly supernatural until relatively modern times.  Isaac Newton, the founder of physics, was also equally known for his explorations into alchemy.  The fact is that at one point in time, there was effectively no difference between those practicing &quot;magic&quot; and those practicing &quot;Science&quot;.  It wasn&#039;t until much more modern times that Science sought to differentiate itself as a separate discipline, both as a means of weeding out unfounded superstitions, and to separate itself from religious practices.  Trickster &quot;magicians&quot;, like David Copperfield, Harry Houdini, et al, further convinced the public that real magic was by definition supernatural and inherently unexplainable.  Ancient magicians and alchemists made no such assumptions.  In fact, there very practice was based on the idea that &quot;magic&quot; could indeed be explained and controlled.  

The supernatural itself is very much a western concept of theology, drawn from the Garden of Eden story.  The idea being that the universe used to be one, but was fractured by god into two parts, one worldly, and the other unknowable, after the fall of mankind from eating the fruit of knowledge.  Without this concept of a seperate unknowable universe superimposed over this one, Magic would then belong to this universe and as Gerald Garner put it be essentially no different than the art of growing potatoes. 

To me, use of the word magic has never been a claim for the existence of the supernatural, but rather a kind of activism which proclaims that it is actually the natural world &lt;i&gt;itself&lt;/i&gt; which is &quot;magical&quot;, and thus a supernatural world view is unnecessary.  I acknowledge too that my point of view is increasingly in the minority, but truth has nothing to do with the number of adherents (See argumentum ad populum).  As long as there are still a handfull of others that share my perspective that magic is nothing more than &quot;The the art of changing consciousness at will&quot; then I&#039;ll continue to both practice &quot;magic&quot; and call myself Pagan.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a pagan Naturalist, I can sense your frustration at the supernaturalist bent that Paganism has taken.  I too am not so crazy about the crystals, and unbelievable claims of many of the adherents of Paganism.   I blame alot of that on the fusion of new age mysticism with Neopaganism which happened in the 60&#8217;s and 70&#8217;s.</p>
<p>Nonetheless, I think that if we allow others to define our words for us, then we give them some degree of power over us.  There is strong evidence that magic was not seen as particularly supernatural until relatively modern times.  Isaac Newton, the founder of physics, was also equally known for his explorations into alchemy.  The fact is that at one point in time, there was effectively no difference between those practicing &#8220;magic&#8221; and those practicing &#8220;Science&#8221;.  It wasn&#8217;t until much more modern times that Science sought to differentiate itself as a separate discipline, both as a means of weeding out unfounded superstitions, and to separate itself from religious practices.  Trickster &#8220;magicians&#8221;, like David Copperfield, Harry Houdini, et al, further convinced the public that real magic was by definition supernatural and inherently unexplainable.  Ancient magicians and alchemists made no such assumptions.  In fact, there very practice was based on the idea that &#8220;magic&#8221; could indeed be explained and controlled.  </p>
<p>The supernatural itself is very much a western concept of theology, drawn from the Garden of Eden story.  The idea being that the universe used to be one, but was fractured by god into two parts, one worldly, and the other unknowable, after the fall of mankind from eating the fruit of knowledge.  Without this concept of a seperate unknowable universe superimposed over this one, Magic would then belong to this universe and as Gerald Garner put it be essentially no different than the art of growing potatoes. </p>
<p>To me, use of the word magic has never been a claim for the existence of the supernatural, but rather a kind of activism which proclaims that it is actually the natural world <i>itself</i> which is &#8220;magical&#8221;, and thus a supernatural world view is unnecessary.  I acknowledge too that my point of view is increasingly in the minority, but truth has nothing to do with the number of adherents (See argumentum ad populum).  As long as there are still a handfull of others that share my perspective that magic is nothing more than &#8220;The the art of changing consciousness at will&#8221; then I&#8217;ll continue to both practice &#8220;magic&#8221; and call myself Pagan.</p>
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